I used to have a car in the US that allways had the smallest engine in its racing group but was still a strong runner which we called 'Mighty Mouse'. I never thought the Boxster would be so similar but when comparing our GT2 class car with the rest of the field it is easy to see that we are the 'Mouse' or are we? I have put together the following comparison for consideration:
Car CC/Lbs HP/Lbs
Supra 6000cc 2900# 700HP 2.06cc/# or 4.14#/HP
Nissan 2250ccX1.7=3825cc 2300# 600HP 1.66cc/# or 3.83#/HP
997RSR 3805cc 2500# 495HP 1.52cc/# or 5.05#/HP
996Cup 3600cc 2400# 450HP 1.50cc/# or 5.58#/HP
Boxster 3600cc 2300# 400HP 1.56cc/# or 5.75#/HP
Looking at this list you can draw several conclusions, one the Supra and the Nissan are in a completely different level from the three Porsches. The other is that you can have light cars with an advantage despite having less power. For this I want to show an interesting and simple formula which seems to clear this up a bit more. Take the HP/Lbs number for each car and divide it by the CC/Lbs number and see what happens:
Supra 4.14#/HP / 2.06cc/# = 2.01
Nissan 3.83#/HP / 1.66cc/# = 2.31
997RSR 5.05#/HP / 1.52cc/# = 3.32
996Cup 5.58#/HP / 1.50cc/# = 3.72
Boxster 5.75#/HP / 1.56cc/# = 3.69
If we say the lower number has the advantage because cars with lower weight per HP and greater number of cc's per pound will be faster then we see the Supra will have an advantage numerically over the Nissan but not a huge one. We also see the three Porsches being very close with the 997RSR being fastest and notice that despite having lower power the Boxster has a rating which says it will beat the 996Cup car. Looking at this list I feel it is very accurate. The Nissan and Supra are much faster than the Porsches and the Porsches that we have seen run are indeed very close to each other but with clear advantage going to the 997. So what do we do with this list? I feel that clearly there is a miss match when it comes to GT1 that should be rectified with the addition of weight for the cars with the low numbers above and possibly a weight reduction for the cars with a high number. For example if you add 225# to the Supra it's number becomes 2.31 vs 2.31 for the Nissan which means they would be numerically even. Dropping the Boxster to 1850# gets it's number to 2.37 which is very close to the Nissan.
Of corse all of this is speculative and does not take into account driver skill, tires, brakes, aerodynamics etc.. However even the best driver will lose if the cards are stacked against him. I am sure all would agree that Michael Schumacher would not be the driver he was driving a Honda, right?
I feel that the Supra being required to run at 2900# vs. the 996Cup at 2300# is simply not going to provide the fans a fair race. Lets even the field a bit and see some great racing!
GT1 Field differences
Although I am far away and never really get to watch Costarican Racing... It would definetly be great for the sport to see some parity between the cars. It seems as the mighty supra and his excelent driver will only loose if something mechanically fails in the cars which can make for some boring racing...
-Marc
-Marc
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C|KiLLeR|S
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escholl
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el dia que uno de esos porsches le gane mano a mano a los de arriba ese dia va a haber un desmadre de regualciones de infarto, si ya los de ts estan en broncas ahora imaginarse ese cuadro, se me cae el pelo
yo si creo que koki les pueda llegar a los gt1's pero en ritmo de carrera no en clasificacion, tal ves me equivoque pero requeririra de mucho huevo poner a volar esa nave que no se si en realidad llegara a eso.
en fin un mjuy buen dato del porsche recer
yo si creo que koki les pueda llegar a los gt1's pero en ritmo de carrera no en clasificacion, tal ves me equivoque pero requeririra de mucho huevo poner a volar esa nave que no se si en realidad llegara a eso.
en fin un mjuy buen dato del porsche recer
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Diego Cuestas
- Mensajes: 48
- Registrado: 15 Nov 2006 12:51
I think the calculations need some adjustements...
The Supra is using a Nascar derived Toyota engine. In Nascar they have 850HP, this is with 358 c.i.. The engine on the SUpra is a bit bigger, and it certainly does not have any air restrictors on the carburetor and other things NASCAR controls. I think it is very safe to assume about 850 HP for this engine. Why do you think it´s just 3 seconds faster than similar cars (Mustang-Rodríguez, Micangelli Corvette, or Mandy González Corvette).
The Nissan I think does not have much more than 525 H.P. If you do the numbers and ask around, it´s just very tough to get more from a 2.2 liter 4 cylinder turbo engine with the air restrictor it must run.
The Porsches, at least the RSR and Cup... why bother changing the rule weight if they are overweight as it is right now, I mean, they could weigh less but they can´t or are not willing to chop out everyting out from the cars.
The boxter... Í don´t know, it looks to me as a spec racer instead of a GT car. I guess it needs a little work to make it fit into the rule book. But at 3.6liters, it´s a GT2 car. It doesn´t make sense to change the rule books so that GT2 cars can beat GT1 cars, I think...
If the changes you propose are done, all other (except the Supra car) V8 cars will easily be beaten by the porsches, which I don´t see very much fair. The V8´s are running pretty close to the weight they run in SCCA and used to in Trans Am. But the Porsches are allowed to run about 200-300 pounds less than in Rolex and IMSA... so they are being given a break as it is, I feel.
on the other hand weight/power ratio is not all. Remember a ligher car with a smaller engine with the same weight/power ratio as a big car will always beat the big car, as this is not only a drag race. Bigger cars have traction difficulty, less agility in turns, more degradation, and more brake wear...
I think the current rewards system is quite good.
The Supra is using a Nascar derived Toyota engine. In Nascar they have 850HP, this is with 358 c.i.. The engine on the SUpra is a bit bigger, and it certainly does not have any air restrictors on the carburetor and other things NASCAR controls. I think it is very safe to assume about 850 HP for this engine. Why do you think it´s just 3 seconds faster than similar cars (Mustang-Rodríguez, Micangelli Corvette, or Mandy González Corvette).
The Nissan I think does not have much more than 525 H.P. If you do the numbers and ask around, it´s just very tough to get more from a 2.2 liter 4 cylinder turbo engine with the air restrictor it must run.
The Porsches, at least the RSR and Cup... why bother changing the rule weight if they are overweight as it is right now, I mean, they could weigh less but they can´t or are not willing to chop out everyting out from the cars.
The boxter... Í don´t know, it looks to me as a spec racer instead of a GT car. I guess it needs a little work to make it fit into the rule book. But at 3.6liters, it´s a GT2 car. It doesn´t make sense to change the rule books so that GT2 cars can beat GT1 cars, I think...
If the changes you propose are done, all other (except the Supra car) V8 cars will easily be beaten by the porsches, which I don´t see very much fair. The V8´s are running pretty close to the weight they run in SCCA and used to in Trans Am. But the Porsches are allowed to run about 200-300 pounds less than in Rolex and IMSA... so they are being given a break as it is, I feel.
on the other hand weight/power ratio is not all. Remember a ligher car with a smaller engine with the same weight/power ratio as a big car will always beat the big car, as this is not only a drag race. Bigger cars have traction difficulty, less agility in turns, more degradation, and more brake wear...
I think the current rewards system is quite good.
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PorscheRacer
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The absolute best would be to again run the GT2 class. I wrote a post a few months ago which talked about how GT racing is about the different classes mixed together and the races inside the overall race. But the reality is that there is no GT2 and with the class gone, I can't see anyone wanting to build one or buy to race here without a class to run it in. So I think we need to assume that there will not be a GT2 again.
If that is true then the GT1 rules need to be revised to include the GT2 cars which must now run GT1. In fact the rules don't even have a place for a car running less than 3.8 ltrs like my Boxster! If you run GT1 you have to weigh 2300# as a minimum even if your engine is so small that the calculations would put me at say 2100#. I have to add weight anyway!
There was a comment about how much advantage a lightweight car has over a heavy car. I of course agree when the race is an endurance race. In endurance racing a lightweight underpowered car can run nearely the same speed from the start to the finish. A heavy high HP car will get slower and slower as the event goes on due to brake fade, tire wear etc... But here we do not race like any other GT series becasue we are doing sprint races. There is no need to worry about brakes, tires, etc... because in 30 min there is simply no time to wear them out. Further, to pass in Guacima you can easily pass with HP on the straigts, but a light and underpowered car, you must do it under braking or in the corners which in 30 min is not an easy task.
Close racing is good for everyone as it is more exciting, more chalanging for the drivers and will ultimetly keep the fans watching. Right now the fans are wondering how much the Supra will win by, not really as exciting as it could be.
I for one hope to see longer races, a few changes in the rules to accomidate all classes of cars, and fun for all!
If that is true then the GT1 rules need to be revised to include the GT2 cars which must now run GT1. In fact the rules don't even have a place for a car running less than 3.8 ltrs like my Boxster! If you run GT1 you have to weigh 2300# as a minimum even if your engine is so small that the calculations would put me at say 2100#. I have to add weight anyway!
There was a comment about how much advantage a lightweight car has over a heavy car. I of course agree when the race is an endurance race. In endurance racing a lightweight underpowered car can run nearely the same speed from the start to the finish. A heavy high HP car will get slower and slower as the event goes on due to brake fade, tire wear etc... But here we do not race like any other GT series becasue we are doing sprint races. There is no need to worry about brakes, tires, etc... because in 30 min there is simply no time to wear them out. Further, to pass in Guacima you can easily pass with HP on the straigts, but a light and underpowered car, you must do it under braking or in the corners which in 30 min is not an easy task.
Close racing is good for everyone as it is more exciting, more chalanging for the drivers and will ultimetly keep the fans watching. Right now the fans are wondering how much the Supra will win by, not really as exciting as it could be.
I for one hope to see longer races, a few changes in the rules to accomidate all classes of cars, and fun for all!
Es cierto lo de las carreras mas largas, sin duda con carreras mas largas el porsche de koki seria un gran favorito, para ganar la general, y habria que ver este nuevo carro en accion, por lo general los porches son muy buenos "maratonistas"
Al parecer ya casi se arma de nuevo parrilla para la GT2, mariano, koki, este porsche, habia un proyecto de un eclipse turbo, el otro eclipse que corria antes, y la opcion de los coto, ya habrian 6 carros, ojala que se reabra la categoria, aunque si veo el carro de koki muy superior a los demas
Al parecer ya casi se arma de nuevo parrilla para la GT2, mariano, koki, este porsche, habia un proyecto de un eclipse turbo, el otro eclipse que corria antes, y la opcion de los coto, ya habrian 6 carros, ojala que se reabra la categoria, aunque si veo el carro de koki muy superior a los demas
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Dr. Poveda
Puede ser que tengas razon en lo de la cantidad de carros, sin embargo las carreras no serian solo de GT2 ya que es lógico que si solo somos 5 o 6 autos vamos a correr mezclados con otras categorias, sin embargo la GT2 podria ser en un futuro una categoria atractiva para los que no tenemos presupuestos de GT1 y para la aficion automovilistica, ya que tiene el atractivo que muchos son proyectos de autos que uno normalmente los ve rodando en las calles y me atrevo a decir que muchos tenemos papeles en orden y solo no tenemos placas porque seria muy INSANE sacar un auto en esas condiciones a la calle. Pero si no empezamos con algo muchos autos seguiran comiendo polvo o peor aún desapareciendo del mapa.
Es muy fácil decir " deje de llorar y mandese para GT1" pero es como que quieras ir a correr a la TS con un GT3 de los punteros, solo un daño en los punteros te permitirá arañar algo en una carrera mientras tanto mucha gente ( la mayoria se que no son de estos foros, pero es gente que no conoce mucho de motores) seguirá diciendo en las carreras saquen ese bulto, roña, etc.. que lo que está haciendo es estorbando y si le sumamos que no hay atractivo para patrocinios, peor aún!. En fin tenemos que ir apoyando a las categorias que no estan corriendo ya que es beneficio para todos hay muchos pero muchos autos guardados en garages que seria bueno verlos corriendo aunque sea de vez en cuando.
Saludos
Es muy fácil decir " deje de llorar y mandese para GT1" pero es como que quieras ir a correr a la TS con un GT3 de los punteros, solo un daño en los punteros te permitirá arañar algo en una carrera mientras tanto mucha gente ( la mayoria se que no son de estos foros, pero es gente que no conoce mucho de motores) seguirá diciendo en las carreras saquen ese bulto, roña, etc.. que lo que está haciendo es estorbando y si le sumamos que no hay atractivo para patrocinios, peor aún!. En fin tenemos que ir apoyando a las categorias que no estan corriendo ya que es beneficio para todos hay muchos pero muchos autos guardados en garages que seria bueno verlos corriendo aunque sea de vez en cuando.
Saludos